Max Schoening is head of product at Notion, where he’s been especially effective at getting designers and PMs to ship code, prototype in the terminal, and launch extremely successful AI products. He was previously a PM at Google, ran design at Heroku, was VP of Design (and a part-time engineer) at GitHub, and is a two-time founder. He’s one of the most AI-forward product leaders out there and one of the deepest thinkers on how AI changes how we build and use software.
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We discuss:
What’s most worked in getting designers and PMs to embrace AI
Why agency—not skills—is the thing that separates people who thrive from those who fall behind
How the first 10% of every project is now “free,” and what that means for product development
Max’s “tiny core” theory of great products: iPhone multitouch, the GitHub pull request, Notion blocks, Dropbox’s menu bar icon
Why the SaaSpocalypse is overstated
Why the amount of software has exploded but the quality hasn’t, and why that gap creates opportunity
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Where to find Max Schoening:
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/max-schoening
• Website: https://max.dev
Referenced:
• Esther 4:14: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Esther%204%3A14&version=NIV
• Notion: https://www.notion.com
• Figma: https://www.figma.com
• Bret Victor—Stop Drawing Dead Fish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfytHvgHybA
• GitHub: https://github.com
• Notion’s Brian Lovin on building a shared prototype playground, using Claude Code to transform Figma designs into working code, and why AI is changing how designers work: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/i-havent-written-a-single-line-of
• Eric Liu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erictliu
• Steve Jobs’s quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/911503/Steve-Jobs-Everything-around-you-that-you-call-life-was-made-up-by-people-that-were-no
• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach
• The Dieter Rams video pinned to Max’s X profile: https://x.com/mschoening/status/1725199919739519299
• Frank Gehry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Gehry
• He saved OpenAI, invented the “Like” button, and built Google Maps: Bret Taylor on the future of careers, coding, agents, and more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/he-saved-openai-bret-taylor
• Joanna Stern’s post on X: https://x.com/JoannaStern/status/2023529964185022898
• How Anthropic’s product team moves faster than anyone else | Cat Wu (Head of Product, Claude Code): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-anthropics-product-team-moves
• This is the flowchart of how Slack decides to send a notification: https://blog.bytebytego.com/p/flowchart-of-how-slack-decides-to
• Tyler Cowen’s blog: https://marginalrevolution.com
• Simon Last on X: https://x.com/simonlast
• Jevons paradox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
• Why Software Is Eating the World: https://a16z.com/why-software-is-eating-the-world
• Why humans are AI’s biggest bottleneck (and what’s coming in 2026) | Alexander Embiricos (OpenAI Codex Product Lead): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-humans-are-ais-biggest-bottleneck
• Heroku: https://www.heroku.com
• Kubernetes: https://kubernetes.io
• Kathy Sierra: Badass—Making Users Awesome, at Mind the Product San Francisco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNnv2GrlnZw
• Ivan Zhao on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanhzhao
• Dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com
• Dario Amodei on X: https://x.com/DarioAmodei
• Clayton Christensen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clayton_Christensen
• The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta
• Lee Sedol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Sedol
• AlphaGo: https://deepmind.google/research/alphago
• TBPN: https://www.tbpn.com
• Chris Rock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Rock
• Stack Overflow: https://stackoverflow.com
• Project Hail Mary: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt12042730
• The Handmaid’s Tale: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5834204
• Ghostty: https://ghostty.org
• Mitchell Hashimoto on X: https://x.com/mitchellh
• Moshi: https://getmoshi.app
• YMDK Split Keyboard Corne V4.1 46 Keys Ergonomic Hotswappable 40% Layout 3D PLA RGB QMK Vial All Key Programmable Mini Independent Gaming Keyboard Kit: https://www.amazon.com/YMDK-Ergonomic-Hotswappable-Programmable-Independent/dp/B0DWSKP3ZT
• Civivi pocket knives: https://www.civivi.com/collections/folding-pocket-knives
• Marcus Aurelius’s quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/762780-the-whole-universe-is-change-and-life-itself-is-but
Recommended books:
• Code: The Hidden Language of Computer Hardware and Software: https://www.amazon.com/Code-Language-Computer-Hardware-Software/dp/0137909101
• Tools for Conviviality: https://www.amazon.com/Tools-Conviviality-Ivan-Illich/dp/1842300113
• Seeing Like a State: How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed: https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-Like-State-Condition-Paperbacks/dp/0300246757
Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected].
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
